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Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples.
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Author:  marpilli [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples.

Mounting loose steel cogs onto an aluminum freehub using flattened staples...

Awhile back I was gathering all the bits and pieces to convert my bike to disc brakes. My existing wheelset wasn't disc compatible and I had found a really good deal on a used Spinergy Xyclone Enduro wheelset.

I picked up the Xyclones cheap (cheeeap) because they had been ridden hard and not properly maintained. I spent several evenings messing around with them (replacing the bearings) and had them in proper working order.

The tech support people at Spinergy were fantastic. I asked them a ton of questions and they were extremely helpful. Even though I didn't buy the wheels from Spinergy, they answered every question. It was obvious they were very proud of their products and supported them without question. That's saying something about a company...

I hadn't realized this wheelset used an aluminum freehub body which can be damaged if you use a cassette that doesn't utilize a carrier like this:

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Well, the previous owner didn't use a cassette of that type and I didn't have one, either.

Here was the condition of the freehub when I bought it:

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At the time I was running 8-speed loose cogs I put together because I couldn't find an 8-speed cassette with the gear ratios I wanted. Although this worked fine on a steel freehub, my loose steel cogs would have eaten this aluminum freehub for lunch.

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What to do? I could have saved up some more money and upgraded to 9-speed (new shifter, derailleur, cassette, and chain). I planned to do that eventually. I really wanted to continue using what I had at the time. It worked, I liked the ratios, and I didn't mind the weight... Research my options...

Google turned up a thread on the weightweenies website where someone had used flattened staples shimmed between the cogs and the freehub to prevent damage. If you scroll down about half way through the first page you'll see the photos.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =1&t=54146

I dug through all of my staples and found some that were long enough. I flattened a few out using my vice. Just opened them by hand, placed them in the vice and compressed.

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Here's where the staples will sit.

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A test fit showed the staples wouldn't fit between the cog and the edge of the freehub. The cogs came from a cassette that cost me about $15 and they were built like tanks. Cheap and sturdy. I decided to file them down a bit. If I screwed it up, I'd just be upgrading to 9-speed that much sooner. ;)

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It took about 25 passes against the side of each tooth to make enough room for the staple. It was still a tight fit. I'd rather have it a bit tight than flopping around on the freehub.

Once I got into the groove (music on and beer nearby), it didn't take long to file the teeth of all the cogs.

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All was going great until I tried to put on the last cog. The last cog is a "deep" cog that the lockring rests against. I couldn't file this one so I needed to cut down the staples a bit. I marked the desired height on the freewheel with a pencil, removed the cogs and spacers, and staples. Trimmed the staples and put it back together. I cut two of the staples a bit short. Good enough for government work...

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Mission accomplished.

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I was able to complete upgrade to disc brakes and keep using my 8-speed drivetrain for the time. No cost, about an hours worth of work, and I got to spend some more time working on my bike in the garage.

I did this late November, 2011. The last ride of that year (New Year's Eve) I caught a stick and destroyed my 8-speed LX derailleur. I upgraded to a 10-speed system in January, 2012.

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C'est la vie. :D

Author:  Shibiwan [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

That's a lot of work for the cassette. I was eyeing the Xyclone wheels as a potential upgrade. What do you think of them so far?

-S

Author:  Magura [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Marp, you're one hell of a hack!
Pretty cool. Now next step is titanium liners ;)


Magura :)

Author:  marpilli [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Shibiwan wrote:
That's a lot of work for the cassette. I was eyeing the Xyclone wheels as a potential upgrade. What do you think of them so far?

-S


Nah, it wasn't that much work. I'd do it again. ;) I really like the Xyclone wheelset. The PBO spokes make them very forgiving. I've landed a few times and thought "gonna have to true these up now". Turns out they're just as straight as the day I put them on. I set them up tubeless (using one layer of Stan's tape, Stan's valves, homebrew sealant, and UST tires) without any problem at all. I'm running ~30psi rear / ~27psi front.

Magura wrote:
Marp, you're one hell of a hack!
Pretty cool. Now next step is titanium liners ;)

Magura :)


Thank you. American Classic has an aluminum freehub with a couple of steel inserts. Lighter weight and the inserts take the pressure off of the aluminum splines. That's a neat idea. http://www.amclassic.com/en/products/hu ... tebody.php

Author:  net wurker [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I can vouch for those spinergy xyclone wheels. I still have set hanging in my garage. I beat the living shit out of them for a couple of years. My locale trails are nothging but rock gardens everywhere, I am not very smooth or finesseful, and I weigh alot. These wheels just flat out took the abuse. 3-4 foot hucks into rocks, bombing rock gardens, you name it.

I did change out the bearings after a years use, but that wasn't a very expensive thing at all. I think 20 bux or so for all of them. I did manage to finally bend the rear wheel just a bit, on a square edged hit. Would have bent probably any wheel less than a true down hill 35mm wheel. It isn't too bad, but it can't be trued to perfect anymore.

These are now regulted to fall-back, emergeny wheel status now. However, next wheel set I buy, I'm gonna get another set of these.

Author:  Sti [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Are hard metals the only practical liners for this application or is there any other material that could work as well? CF, some hardened epoxy, diamond dust, anything?

Author:  Magura [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Sti wrote:
Are hard metals the only practical liners for this application or is there any other material that could work as well? CF, some hardened epoxy, diamond dust, anything?


No sure there are other options out there, but it's gonna cost a fortune.
PEEK with continuous carbon fiber would be an option.

Why would you want to avoid Ti6Al4V for instance? it's readily available, and fairly easy to deal with.


Magura :)

Author:  Sti [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Magura wrote:
Why would you want to avoid Ti6Al4V for instance? it's readily available, and fairly easy to deal with.
Magura :)


Ti sounds like a lot of work with a file and a caliper. ;) I am a lazy hack. I think I am going to stick to cassettes on alum carriers for now. :)

Author:  Magura [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Sti wrote:
Magura wrote:
Why would you want to avoid Ti6Al4V for instance? it's readily available, and fairly easy to deal with.
Magura :)


Ti sounds like a lot of work with a file and a caliper. ;) I am a lazy hack. I think I am going to stick to cassettes on alum carriers for now. :)


Not really.
Buy some Ti wire, and call it a day ;)
...or some Ti sheet, and cut a few strips.

Magura :)

Author:  Shibiwan [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Sti wrote:
Are hard metals the only practical liners for this application or is there any other material that could work as well? CF, some hardened epoxy, diamond dust, anything?


...and you end up wearing out the casette with diamond coatings.... besides the coatings are very thin (2-5 micron) and not thick enough to strengthen the metal substrate below to prevent it from dinging.

Hardened epoxy/CF wouldn't survive 5 minutes under all that abrasion.

-S

Author:  Sti [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Well the diamond dust was supposed to be a joke but you engineers suffer from a horrible lack of sense of humour when your hobby gets discussed! ;)

Author:  Shibiwan [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

This requires a smiley-based response...

:smack:

-S

Author:  Sti [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Touche!

Author:  RandyBoy [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

This is why most all my DT Swiss rear hubs I've hacked with SS carriers, and quit worrying about cheap cassettes like SRAM 950's. Or I go down to Hadley's and get a new titanium carrier for some $$$. Just cheaper to buy Sram 990's online, at $65 to 70 a pop, keep a few around for when I need a new one (all the time) and keep running them instead.

Author:  Sti [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I am with you RandyBoy. The cost difference is not dramatic big between low and upper-mid range cassettes, and the weight savings alone are worth the few extra bucks IMO.

Author:  marpilli [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I also agree. But, I couldn't find an 8 speed cassette on a carrier. ;)

It was either this or an entire drivetrain upgrade. 8-)

Author:  Jon Richard [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I was considering switching to 10 speed bits but I can't find a cassette that I like. I run a DT 240 ss hub with 9 speed cogs currently, for now I have an XT-770 cassette.

The SRAM PG-1070 I would consider, but in general it seems light weight cassettes having the cogs riveted to a spider aren't prevalent.

Author:  Sti [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Jon Richard wrote:
I was considering switching to 10 speed bits but I can't find a cassette that I like. I run a DT 240 ss hub with 9 speed cogs currently, for now I have an XT-770 cassette.

The SRAM PG-1070 I would consider, but in general it seems light weight cassettes having the cogs riveted to a spider aren't prevalent.


Shimano HG M771. Two alum carriers with 3 largest cogs on each. They can be had for under $80.

Author:  Jon Richard [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

Sti wrote:
Jon Richard wrote:
I was considering switching to 10 speed bits but I can't find a cassette that I like. I run a DT 240 ss hub with 9 speed cogs currently, for now I have an XT-770 cassette.

The SRAM PG-1070 I would consider, but in general it seems light weight cassettes having the cogs riveted to a spider aren't prevalent.


Shimano HG M771. Two alum carriers with 3 largest cogs on each. They can be had for under $80.


That was one of the first I checked out, but I thought it was a little on the heavy side at 300 ish grams.

Author:  Sti [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I switched from 2x9 to 1x10 so the little extra weight of the cassette is not such a big deal.

Author:  RandyBoy [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I'd kind of like to run a 3 x 7 on a SS hub like a Hadley, use the carrier gears on a spider off a Sram 990, plus one cog, and then run 22-32-44 in the front and call it good. But I don't want to have to switch over to Shimano derailleur in the rear. So I leave well enough alone.

Author:  Jon Richard [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

I still might, I'm just holding out as it's hard to justify. I wouldn't really gain anything from making the swap with the set up I have.

I almost went with American Classics due to the steel insert on the freehub body like marp mentioned but that isn't available for the ss hub.

Does HK have a dedicated hack sub-forum? Most all bike related information I either have or need would be there, maybe that would be DIY parts

Author:  marpilli [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

We do have a DIY Parts forum: viewforum.php?f=9

There's a lot of DIY in the other forums, also. Magura, Shibi, and I have been trying to post up a bunch of DIY projects in each.

Author:  Jon Richard [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mounting steel cogs on an aluminum freehub using staples

That is excellent!

When I have something finished that may be of value to others I'll post it up with pics.

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