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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:17 pm 
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flirting kitty
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Anyone who can chime in, please do. I am looking for a little relief from the ride quality my alloy hardtail frame supplies.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:27 pm 
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lil' hucker

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Location: Cazadero Ca.
I got a full carbon road bike and the roads around here are like riding the cobbles. I do notice the difference between an alloy bike and carbon. The carbon definitely dampens the road vibrations. I also have a '92 steel Marin mountain bike that I converted to single speed. When they say steel is real, it's true. I've ridden rock gardens and washboard trails and I love the feel of steel. My current hardtail is an old alloy Santa Cruz Chameleon which is my winter bike. It is definitely harsher in the rough stuff. I've been looking at modern geo steel hard tail to replace my old Chameleon. I'm sure a carbon hard tail would be a lot more comfortable, but for me it's the cost.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:48 pm 
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flirting kitty
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norton55 wrote:
I got a full carbon road bike and the roads around here are like riding the cobbles. I do notice the difference between an alloy bike and carbon. The carbon definitely dampens the road vibrations. I also have a '92 steel Marin mountain bike that I converted to single speed. When they say steel is real, it's true. I've ridden rock gardens and washboard trails and I love the feel of steel. My current hardtail is an old alloy Santa Cruz Chameleon which is my winter bike. It is definitely harsher in the rough stuff. I've been looking at modern geo steel hard tail to replace my old Chameleon. I'm sure a carbon hard tail would be a lot more comfortable, but for me it's the cost.


It's my understanding that steel is more forgiving compared to alloy. Is it mildly flexing? Is it the heaviness (compared to alloy) that absorbs the vibrations?

How would you describe/explain the ride improvement quality of steel over alloy?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:06 pm 
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lil' hucker

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For me alloy has sharpness on bumps as opposed to dullness with steel. Alloy seems to be a lot stiffer than steel and it could be that steel has a lot more flex to it by nature. I've never ridden a Ti bike, but they are supposed to be a lot smoother also, with properties between steel and carbon. Again not cheap.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:25 pm 
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yappin' kitty
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tires tires tires. Add volume. Try some 26 plus on your 27.5er drop the pressure. Takes the edge off


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:17 pm 
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lil' hucker

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Good point.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:04 pm 
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MiniTrail wrote:
tires tires tires. Add volume. Try some 26 plus on your 27.5er drop the pressure. Takes the edge off


Yes, that's what I am hearing from others. Just trying to avoid going to plus tires (currently rolling 2.3s) because of the added drag on the extended climbs we have here in So Cal. I did a quickie test ride on a plus bike once. It was like riding in a Cadillac, lol. I realize that plus tires are gonna be the quick and inexpensive fix here.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:33 pm 
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bad kitty!
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MiniTrail wrote:
tires tires tires. Add volume. Try some 26 plus on your 27.5er drop the pressure. Takes the edge off


And the winner of the thread iiiiiis............

Give it up for-

MiniTrail!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Tires are orders of magnitude bigger influence on how bumpy your ride is, compared to any other option, short of suspension.

The vibrations carbon will dampen, are in the kHz range, not in the "I feel it's less rattly" range.

If you want comfort and a nimble, reasonably light bike, in the same package, you gotta get off the cool aid and use 26", or (gasp) 24" like yours truly.
I ride 24" x 2.5" and have no such issues, on a fully rigid garden gate.

Magura :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:06 pm 
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^ I wish they made a 24” fat bike tire. The 26” comes out over 29” diameter on a 4.7 width. A bit much for lil old me. And thank you for the praise



Hawgzilla wrote:
Yes, that's what I am hearing from others. Just trying to avoid going to plus tires (currently rolling 2.3s) because of the added drag on the extended climbs we have here in So Cal. I did a quickie test ride on a plus bike once. It was like riding in a Cadillac, lol. I realize that plus tires are gonna be the quick and inexpensive fix here.


I’m with you there. I bought the flux with 26+ intentions after putting a pair of dirt wizard 26+ on the fat bike. I figured I needed the squish and the 26+ for tired wrists but after having one of the best summer riding seasons on the skinny 27.5s my knees talked me out of it. Never was or will be a good climber but I’m making climbs I would not attempt otherwise. Maybe you could try a 2.5 as a compromise.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:13 am 
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pussy
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My humble opinion on frame harshness:

the most harsh: carbon -> Alu alloy -> Scandium alloy -> Steel -> Titanium: the least harsh


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:18 am 
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flirting kitty
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I have decided to go the route of larger tires. My Timberjack came with a 135 rear end but it's convertible to 142 or 148 via Alternator plate kits.

A few days ago, I ordered 142 end caps for my Hope Pro 4 rear hub. Today, I stopped by my local Salsa Cycles dealer and ordered the 142X12 Alternator plate kit and a stealth style 12mm thru-axle. I also ordered a set of 29X2.6 Maxxis Rekon tires. I guess I am gonna try "29+"...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:13 am 
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bad kitty!
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Sti wrote:
My humble opinion on frame harshness:

the most harsh: carbon -> Alu alloy -> Scandium alloy -> Steel -> Titanium: the least harsh



Let's apply some numbers to this ;)

The stiffness of a tube, increases by the square of the diameter.

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet. ... d798bf3726

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMa ... num=m4130r

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet. ... 06e&ckck=1

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMa ... num=mtp641

As you can see, the modulus of elasticity, fits nicely with the tube diameters and wall thicknesses you see in bikes, and how stiff a given frame is.
There's no mystery to frame stiffness, it's simple math.
It's also back o' napkin math to tell how stiff a frame is, more or less just from a few simple dimensions, counting out carbon, as that can be messed up pretty badly, and often is so.
The attentive reader will have noticed that Scandium wasn't mentioned. That's cause the difference of elasticity between that and 7005T6 is down to the marketing department for a frame. It makes for less issues with broken welds, that's about it.

A frame can have more or less stiffness sideways, and higher or lower ultimate strength, but as soon as you're in the top end of competition frames, they're all much the same, as sideways the frame needs to be as stiff as possible, to cause the lowest loss of the minuscule amount of precious power the engine is able to supply.

So what's the grand conclusion?

The difference in actual dampening of the forces in the different frames is orders of magnitude less interesting, than saving the measly few watts we're able to produce.
Compared to tires, the difference in comfort seen from a top race frame, to a noodle, is roughly like going from 23 to 25mm tires on a road bike. On a MTB......yeah you guessed it, none, besides the loss of energy.

Now fact is that you can find loads of opinions that are contrary to this, but when you hear said opinions, there'll be one key word "opinion".
Said opinions are based on the power of suggestion, which is how marketing works.
The above is not an opinion, but fairly simple physics, which is sadly underrated these days.
Check the numbers, it's not rocket science.

Magura :thinking:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:52 pm 
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lil' hucker
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Hawgzilla wrote:
Anyone who can chime in, please do. I am looking for a little relief from the ride quality my alloy hardtail frame supplies.


Grow a suspension for God sakes, ya old man. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:28 pm 
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lil' hucker

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Hardtail are fun.......... ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:38 pm 
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OK mom! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:53 pm 
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bad kitty!
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norton55 wrote:
Hardtail are fun.......... ;)


Yeah, that's the irony of it all.
Most of the non-suspended bikes are ridden by us old guys.....go figure.

The closet roadie in me likes a bit of suspension on the long trips though, here pictured having a nap on the way home from going down Danube last year.


Magura :D


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:57 pm 
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bad kitty!
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Sti wrote:
OK mom! :lol:


:teasing-neener:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:58 pm 
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lil' hucker

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Nice. Running a 54? With all the steep climbs around here I run a compact on my road bike.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:48 pm 
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yappin' kitty

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I prefer steel. Reynolds 853 tubing is very smooth riding but does not feel flexy to me.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:05 am 
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yappin' kitty

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The problem with those + tires is more rolling resistance. Of course, you being the optimist, you prolly welcome that as "more resistance".....it will only make me STRONGER!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:23 am 
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bad kitty!
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https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rin ... etest.html

A little goodnight read.

Magura :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:39 pm 
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lil' hucker

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Another take on bike/suspension designs. A close friend of mine, we affectionally call him "Johnny Blue Jeans" 'cause he rides wearing them.
http://www.castellanodesigns.com/index.html

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:51 pm 
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yappin' kitty

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I knew a fellow down here who always rode in blue jeans. FAST.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:55 pm 
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yappin' kitty
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I like the old school chopper in the picture of him as a youngin


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:12 pm 
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yappin' kitty

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Magura wrote:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rinard_frametest.html

A little goodnight read.

Magura :)


Very good, Mr. Magura. Only, I read it this AM.....still good!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:24 pm 
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lil' hucker

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Got a funny story about John. He's a M.I.T. grad in engineering, incredibly bright. So a number of years ago he returned from a trip back east and mentioned to me that he went to see the Rockettes in New York. So I asked him how was the show figuring he would talk about the dancers legs and costumes. So he answers back "do you know they dance in prime numbers? I just stood there in shock. I see legs and he see's math.
btw - he rides single speed and he very skilled rider.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:47 pm 
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bad kitty!
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norton55 wrote:
Nice. Running a 54? With all the steep climbs around here I run a compact on my road bike.


It was rarely in the mountains during that time, and nothing like what you have in mind.
I guess that bike has a 53-39 front, and an 11-21 rear.
Now it's sporting Spinergy REV tubulars, and it's sure not getting anywhere near a mountain in that configuration.

Got other bikes for mountains.

Magura :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:51 pm 
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bad kitty!
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norton55 wrote:
Another take on bike/suspension designs. A close friend of mine, we affectionally call him "Johnny Blue Jeans" 'cause he rides wearing them.
http://www.castellanodesigns.com/index.html


I am actually currently working on figuring how to make a fully road bike using that rear end design, coupled with a Cannondale Silk Road front end.
I'll probably plank a Cannondale Scalpel rear end, and go to town with carbon to make it fit.

Magura :)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:27 am 
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lil' hucker

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Magura wrote:
norton55 wrote:
Nice. Running a 54? With all the steep climbs around here I run a compact on my road bike.


It was rarely in the mountains during that time, and nothing like what you have in mind.
I guess that bike has a 53-39 front, and an 11-21 rear.
Now it's sporting Spinergy REV tubulars, and it's sure not getting anywhere near a mountain in that configuration.

Got other bikes for mountains.

Magura :)


11-21! You must a masher with a gear ratio like that......... ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:29 am 
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bad kitty!
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norton55 wrote:
Magura wrote:
norton55 wrote:
Nice. Running a 54? With all the steep climbs around here I run a compact on my road bike.


It was rarely in the mountains during that time, and nothing like what you have in mind.
I guess that bike has a 53-39 front, and an 11-21 rear.
Now it's sporting Spinergy REV tubulars, and it's sure not getting anywhere near a mountain in that configuration.

Got other bikes for mountains.

Magura :)


11-21! You must a masher with a gear ratio like that......... ;)


Actually not. Yours truly has the Garmin record on a few segments around here.
I'm a member of OFF (Old, Fat, and fast). :D
As you probably know Norton, your dick grows about 1/10" every time you leave somebody half your age in the dust.


Magura :)

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